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I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri we
don't want to fight the bear but by
Jingo if we do we've got the men we've
got the ships we've got the money too
that 19th Century Music Hall Dy was a
favorite of the late and great Anthony
Wedgewood Ben it could have been applied
to the speech made by his son Hillary
Ben bringing to a close the Fateful
debate in Parliament this week which has
taken Britain to war again to discuss it
here on board the Sputnik we have
Britain's foremost by a country mile in
fact conservative political writer and
analyst Peter oborn and I'm glad to say
we can talk now Peter in the first
instance about the debate it's often
said cliche that such occasions show the
House of Commons at its best actually I
thought it showed the House of Commons
at its worst this week what did you
think I completely agree with you um the
one person who made a serious
contribution I felt or the most it was
Jeremy Corbin but he was treated very
badly by the house and not protected by
the speaker and not protected by the
speaker who I mean number of things
would be said about the speaker of the
commons who ought to represent
impartiality what he did this week was
to protect the war party in the house
because at the end of Hillary Ben's
meretricious speech uh the house burst
into started clapping which I think and
the the speaker stopped the SNP from
clapping speeches but he tolerated
clapping of Hillary Ben and that
clapping of course sent out the the
message that the the Tory party the Tory
party and the new labor faction had come
together to vote for air strikes on
Syria the wars always start out with a
tossing of uh straw hats and flag waving
and cheers uh but it seldom lasts long
uh the first world war we were told was
going to be over by Christmas but for
Christmases hence it was still uh
producing blood and gore in Oceanic
quantity uh this will not have the same
oan IC quantity but a lot of blood will
now be spilled and to what
effect well that is what the uh prime
minister in my view was unable to
explain he just doesn't really have a
war plan he doesn't he's really a case
of of bombing and hoping for the best
and that isn't really good enough
because I think that Waging War is a uh
very serious thing indeed it causes
deaths it causes casual is it it's um
caes innocent casualties and he really
it is a serious matter and what I
disliked about the debate last week was
the way it was clearly being used for a
domestic political purpose uh that is to
say that it was carefully structured to
split the labor party and the utterly
disreputable remarks by the Prime
Minister that the terrorist sympathizers
were going to go into the no lobbies
going to vote against the refused to
withdraw which you refused to withdraw
that was using a matter which of as
serious as
war in order to score domestic cheap
domestic political points you're a
history man uh you'll you'll know as I
don't who said this but it seems to me
an axiom uh in War uh that you work out
what your enemy wants you to do and you
do something different in this case uh
there is no doubt at all indeed it's on
social media now I saw a very powerful
meme on social media emanating from
these Isis types last night which was a
recreation of the uh Crusader Army of
the Franks and the English that they're
coming back together again to launch
another assault on the Muslim World Isis
and Al-Qaeda and people like them they
really wanted us to vote for war war
yesterday because they want to draw Us
in to a conflict because these people
are ready to die they have no fear of
dying but which will in the longer term
bring the Muslims to their
banner I think that is true um there's
no question if you look at the Mad
eatology uh of of Isis that they have
this notion that they want to have the
war to end all wars we are as far as
Isis are concerned we are entering the
end times now and I think most of the
people who are fighting in that war in
Syria by the way all believe that we are
entering the end times we're going to
see The Return of the medi and all kinds
and the war to end all wars but I I uh
and so you can say that on the other
hand we let's let's say something else
we do need to confront Isis sure I mean
they are an question how not we have to
confront them in a way that defeats them
not in a way that strengthens them and
uh adding seven or eight tornadoes
uh to the mix isn't going to end them
it's going to recruit for them I'm
absolutely sure that as we sit here this
weekend there are people in England who
are plotting to harm us they're not
being directed from raqa they will use
weapons that didn't come from raqa it's
the idea that comes from raqa and I
wonder if this War's popularity in so
far as it has any about 50/50 they say
in the poems Will Survive the first
terrorist atrocity an act of mass murder
against innocent people seeking to
punish guilty people just like
77 yeah against that I would say that
the thought of a domestic atrocity which
as you say is perfectly
conceivable is should not put us off
doing Waging War or any any kind of
foreign policy of course it shouldn't do
that
uh but nevertheless I I I do agree that
I heard the um foreign secretary Philip
Hammond immediately after the vote
saying this is making Britain safer yeah
I don't think that is in the short term
that's certainly not true and in the
long term we have to confront make sure
that Dash is confronted and and
destroyed I mean it is a absolutely
poisonous group as by the way the
Russians have understood much better
than the West indeed let's come on to
the I started with the Jingo uh quote
precisely for that because that was
about a confrontation in which Britain
on the side of turkey was confronting
Russia on its thrust towards
Constantinople now Istanbul uh
remarkable historical Echo uh that's
exactly where we are now isn't it we are
in Alliance with turkey and with the
United States and France uh against
Russia and this scarcely figured in the
debate yesterday because whilst it's
abundantly clear the Western powers are
bent upon regime change in Damascus
didn't seem to occur to them that Russia
and Iran are as implacably
opposed and therefore a confrontation in
Syria over Syria is next to
inevitable well the Syria civil war
which is the most unsp unable tragedy
I've been to Syria several times during
this conflict and it makes you want to
cry and cry and
cry um this wonderful country beautiful
country Center of
civilization um being destroyed I walked
through a suburb of Damascus two months
ago it was E
scoter I couldn't you couldn't get
anything you couldn't even hear bird
song nothing there was no life in it at
all a place where people had lived and
thrived only two years before now what
what is the um and you look at what is
causing the war there are so many
there's the the the the Saudi versus
Iranian
conflict Isis and Al-Qaeda were
certainly see it as a Shia Sunni
conflict and I think too many people in
the in Britain see it as a a western
versus Russian conflict and I it's clear
to me that it is uh that we all parties
have to come together to eradicate Isis
if we go on fighting our proxy wars in
Syria then we're going to that is how
Isis survives because people use them as
as you rightly suggest it looks very
much like the Turks have used them um it
looks very much like the Saudis have
used them in some way so people have be
looks very much like we have used some
will say we've used them in order to get
down to do down Assad so there are all
these agendas going on and that was not
I didn't hear that that that point being
made very clearly the confrontation with
Russia not just because we're on RT but
because I think the world might depend
on it the confrontation with Russia that
will now follow is uh the most important
thing for me much as I love Syria I
don't want to see uh war between Russia
and the West um but but we saw with the
shooting down of the Russian fighter uh
by turkey just how quickly and how
easily that could happen what are your
worries on that score well exactly the
same as yours I my my view is that
Russia understood the nature of the the
real nature of the problem in Syria much
sooner than uh the Britain
Cameron Obama although I think Obama's
been more intelligent than some say the
the the the threat Assad warned from the
very beginning of the conflict that the
threat was came from is militant Jihadi
nihilist
wahhabi Fighters and it was a real and
we thought continued to see it long
after it wasn't even conceivably true as
a battle between freedom loving Hamstead
socialists and a brutal dict dictatorial
autocratic regime in in in Damascus that
was a great Folly by Britain and America
and the West because the Russians saw it
in a much more much much more realistic
way that here is a militant Jihad trying
to take Damascus once it's taken
damaskus the the message that sends out
around the world and and Russia saw that
and Lov by the way has been the
extraordinar impressive figure lro is
the most impressive state States man and
Diplomat of my lifetime there's more of
this after the
break welcome back to Sputnik orbiting
the world and in particular the Middle
East but actually as we're now into
something of a global confrontation
genuinely looking at the world with
Peter obor conservative small C probably
also Big C though I don't inquire as to
which card is in his wallet but a man of
the world a man of History by far in a
way the most acute Observer of
international Affairs on the right in
Britain today and Peter uh we ended the
first half talking about lavro and the
confrontation that may now uh lie before
us uh over Syria quite frightening times
I'm bound to say if you are a
conservative with a big c that
Hammond compared to lavro they said of
Addington after he succeeded pit that
pit is to Addington as London is to
Paddington uh it seems to me that
Hammond to lavro isn't much of a
competition Simon Jenkins another
conservative columnist in the newspapers
this week described Cameron AS
terrorism's useful idiot I suppose what
I'm getting at is that at this perilous
time we're not actually being led by by
men of great
stature yes I I I accept that Hammond
Philip Hammond the foreign secretary is
I forgotten his first name yeah he is
not a significant figure he is
essentially a manifestation of George
Osborne um and uh he I I he has not yet
to say anything which has given me the
impression he knows what he's talking
about when it comes to uh foreign policy
or the world um he's a useful machine
politician the the state of the
conservative party is something to which
I'd like to turn you're a equally acute
Observer of that we'll come to the labor
party too in a in a minute the
conservative party uh having from my
point of view failed uh in its Central
objective after six years uh now of
austerity uh myin Scandal the uh Scandal
that led to the suicide of a Young Man
would in ordinary and and with Cameron
having pre-announced that he was going
would in other
circumstances uh be spiraling downwards
be in a bit of trouble serious trouble
uh is this war a useful diversion for
them from that I I don't think you can
make that thesis sustainable because the
Cameron is so dominant I mean owing to
the weakness of labor at the moment the
fact that labor is fighting a Civil War
the conservative have just won a general
election it's not like a desperate
attempt by Kaiser vilhelm on in 1914 he
launched His World War One really to
maintain his domestic standing I don't
think so I think Cameron genuinely uh
believes in this um and he's convinced
that he's doing the right thing but
let's go back to the conservative party
which I do agree with you is is in a
very interesting state of Crisis and by
the way it's the same state of Crisis
that labor is in uh and it's worth
explaining
both parties were captured by
modernizers
um the Blair rights captured the labor
party they immediately reprogrammed it
they they destroyed the power of the
traditional institutions the NEC they
turned the labor party into an
instrument of the of neoliberalism and
neoconservatism this was a brilliant
operation by by Blair and madelon and
what you Happ happened with kin is it's
been recaptured by the labor base very
now let's now turn to the conservative
party where something very similar is
going
on the conservative Cy was captured by
the by the modernizing faction who um
model themselves on Blair they they the
hero worship
Blair and uh they have uh and they did
exactly the same thing organizationally
structurally methodolog methodologically
that is to say they deprogram the
conservative party traditionally the
conservative party has had a major
figure really substantial a Chris
patteron a thoric Croft a Willie White
Law rad Butler a really significant
major figure at the top they got rid of
the political figures on the top and
they put in the money man the crony BL
the Cameron's ten Cameron's tennis
partner an non entity Feldman in charge
of the conservative party accountable
only to Cameron and Osborne nobody else
and that he's incapable he's got no
political skills not allowed on the
television even imagine that the the
representative of the conservative base
is not even permitted to go on news
night or the today program is just a
manifestation of the leadership of the
capture of the Party by the hedge fund
managers actually and he's now and he
he's very interesting this this latest
filthy disgusting tragic set of events
happening in the heart of the
conservative party it's not because he's
a l he knew it was going on but because
he didn't have the skills or the ability
or the wisdom to to act and react to it
and
who therefore be the beneficiary of this
uh who's the Corbin then in the
conservative party very interesting who
will uh who will lead a campaign to make
it conservative again what I I mean it's
one point is that Corin captured came
from within in the conservative the
Revolt came from outside
ukip farage grabbed millions of
conservative voters but he did it from
outside now nevertheless I think we must
be on the edge of a of a a popular
Revolt from within the constituency
associations and the activists because
let's see how Felman has done the the
so-called chair well he is the chairman
of the party he he's turned it into a
proe campaigning machine he's going out
there ringing up his big
donors and asking them to contribute to
the Romain Camp he and mandelson and and
and the new labor mob and will straw the
son of the and said they're all together
in this Center we're all in this
together let's turn to uh Jeremy Corbin
I saw him in that uh Victorian painting
of the Stag at Bay uh in the house uh
this week uh he was Noble he was trying
to make a sincere and I believe powerful
fundamentally powerful set of points he
was torn down by the yapping uh hounds
um
I'm not sure that he survives this if
this is his last moment what a glorious
way to go what what Corbin did was
perform the traditional role of the
leader of an opposition utterly
honorable hold government policy to
account and the the reaction to that by
the rest of the house by the media and
above all by his colleagues was to to
ignore him to humiliate him but what a
magnificent way to go if if he does go I
and I think there's still a fight on his
hands because he does have the support
as far as I can tell of labor party
members I want to turn to the question
of Europe if I may on which you uh very
frequently uh write uh someone like me
for example an internationalist the very
opposite of a xenophobe and and a a
racist bigot which a lot of the ukip uh
individuals seem to me to be uh will
find myself almost certainly uh in the
same Lobby uh uh I believe in Europe I
believe in the unity of its people but I
can't support this EU uh I cannot
campaign for it I cannot try to persuade
people to vote for it and given that
it's also under attack from a different
political perspective I'm not sure that
the center ground the political class uh
can actually hold and it may be that
they are headed for defeat on the
European Union I am well let's look at
the I I I'd like to think that I I
probably will be part of the no Camp I'm
respectfully waiting for the prime
minister to return from his negotiations
and if he does uh secure British
Britain's democracy I think this is what
to me what is at stake is British
democracy the the ant the European Union
the central criticism for me is that the
European Union is an
anti-democratic body and we want to I
love I think you do to be something
maybe well United on British
parliamentary democracy is a great thing
and uh we and our sovereignty is
something which you can't you Europe
isn't is is is run by bureaucrats who
themselves are controlled very often by
large corporations and un and they're
invisible nobody knows who they are they
get paid huge sums and that is the
campaigning perhaps we will be on a I'd
be delighted to be on a platform with
you the problem is some of the others uh
as Wellington said reviewing his own
troops before watero I don't know what
they do to the enemy but they don't have
frighten me uh but you and I and uh
maybe Hitchens could uh could form a a
traveling show uh that might draw in the
the crowns I just don't see you see when
an
institution when there's no love for an
institution and nobody loves the
European Union nobody even the people
does have it has the uh the MEPS the
bureaucrats people picking up the money
the big companies which which create the
legislation they they station their
lobbyists they it in Brussels and they
they love the lookup but when I fought
the first uh referendum in
1975 I was against uh joining it uh
there were quite a lot of people who
loved it the idea of Europe of the
European Union no more war and and and
and you could see the intellectual basis
of that uh set of beliefs but as it's
turned out into this bloated
anti-democratic untransparent invisible
really quite malignant also an
instrument of Destruction in Greece if
you're a Greek or Portugal an instrument
of Social and Industrial destruction a
wealth destruction a jobs destroying
machine that is what Europe has become
yeah I'm not sure there are going to be
able to hold the line I'm not sure the
of course it will be the big fear
campaign use uh and that will have an
effect but I'm not sure that it's going
to be uh decisive finally then you're uh
as well as being a a renaissance man
intellectual and all that you're you're
a practicing uh journalist um I must say
that the broadcast media in particular
the
BBC uh starting from the Iraq War 2003
and the Muro owned Sky News Empire which
drives so much newspaper coverage after
the broadcasters have spoken uh share a
lot of responsibility for the
international situation that we are now
in I will end up by defending the BBC
because it is at its best uh an a
something which we all have in common
it's part of our common culture it
should not be owned or possessed
possessed by the political class and
recent figures at the Helm of the BBC
have of course been much too close
they've forgotten their great reian
inheritance become instruments of
political interest which they mustn't be
what would we be be without the
BBC it would go over to and that's why
Murdoch who you critical of wants to
destroy the BBC so that it can all we
can have us Style TV do we want that no
but if we end up with a BBC that is IND
distinguish able from what M would like
the TV to be I mean some of the people
we don't have time to go into it who
have been elevated to the top of the BBC
are in fact political aaric indeed of
this uh merged political class that you
spoke about uh earlier it's been
absolutely fascinating I must say Peter
auor thanks for joining us thank you
very muchnik i' lovely to talk to
you and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling well the Daily
Mail headline the morning after the vote
was after the bombs what's next Ricardo
Picasso says much humility apology and
an admission that we are wrong or just
more war because it's easier and Bobby
Six killer says regime Chang they've
already said so turn it into another
Libya yes another Libya another Iraq
they ended well didn't they they did and
that's all that we've got for today
which alas means that's the end of a
terrific show I hope you'll agree you
can stay in touch with us on Twitter at
rtor Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me gatri
and from me George Gallow it's been
marvelous